Hi, I am staying at a resort in Flores. They are charging a 10%...

Hi, I am staying at a resort in Flores. They are charging a 10% tax plus an 11% service charge. My question is Is the 11% service charge legal? I am receiving conflicting advice. Should I have the right to ‘tip’ based on the quality of the service I receive, and be able to determine the amount myself. I live in Pererenan, and this is the first time in some years I have stayed at a resort frequented by tourists. It’s quite an eye opener. The charges for massage 800 rupiah for 90 minutes, and it is nothing special,, boat trips to Komodo...5 million rupiah for 5 hours etc are mind boggling. To then be charged 21% on top looks like robbery to me. Granted the 10% tax is a requirement Is it correct that employees are paid 5% of a businesses gross, and that the service charge is unenforceable, but has grown out of the employee payment requirement, and has been rounded up as a way to increase company profits? Is this a blatant rip off of tourists who come to Bali and stay in these resorts. The German manager of this resort was curt when I queried his right to mandate the charge, I have now advised I need him to provide proof of his right to charge guests this amount. He has undertaken to get further advice and respond. This is a chain hotel resort, who are in a secluded area, meaning there are no other businesses around who can provide competitive services, and keep this business honest Can anybody provide information as to what are my rights. Thank you in advance

Absolutely normal. Actually, to be technical although the numbers are the same, you are charged for the amount & 10% tax. On top of that total you are charged 10%. But the calculations end up being the same as 21%. This is why I don't like to eat at restaurants that are part of hotels. The end bill can be a bit of a surprise. The 10% service charge is divided by workers and is not kept by management.

Thanks Dana, my question relates to law... it seems from the information, it is practice, not law, and is therefore unenforceable...I have the right to determine the ‘tip’, is what I am being advised across this and two other blogs

Because it's writen on the menu, at the moment you order you agree,

marcel5 Totally if it is written anywhere even with a little * TC, it is like a contract you agreed.

In Indonesia you pay, or find another restaurant.

peter8966 it is LAW

exactly. This was my other point. If it's on the website where the hotel was booked then the act of booking the room is the same as agreeing to pay it.... (Having waitressed in the US, I always tip minimum 10% anyway.)

TripAdvisor has an Indonesian page. It states the service charge is legally unenforceable

Because something is written on a menu does not make a service charge legally enforceable, if there is no law giving the establishment the right to do so. It is in fact an act to circumvent law... a customer has the right to pay a tip or service amount based on his definition monetarily of the quality of the service....as it should be.

peter8966 no, a menu or a well-placed board visible to all customers indicating that on all price service charge and tax apply above all prices are contractual and every business owner has the right here to display the price how he wants. I could add a 200k IDR "whatever fee" if I want. if it's clearly mentioned on the menu and you order you agree so it's enforceable. As our Balinese friends say so often, it's our land our rules, if not happy with this...

it's not because whe are used a other way that we have to change them, that is call adaptation

So by your argument Marcel...if you provide bad service...you still have a right to charge a full service fee.. consumer rights be damned???

peter8966 yes because it's part of the contract

it the states you have to tip for example

It is unenforceable Marcel, and because it is industry practice...doesn’t make it legislated into law.. it is a consumers right to determine any additional payment made as a result of his or her experience the level of goods or services provided. Please quote the law allowing the provided to add the service charge fee. I think you will find it doesn’t exist

Normally you would include the service costs in the meal price but Indonesian businesses tend to show this as a separate price on the billing so in effect it is probably legal as either way, you are going to be paying for service even is shown or otherwise included in the final prices. I've only seen one chain of business in Jakarta run by the folks that own Eastern Promise to be the only business to actually show the final price in the menu, ie, service and tax already include. This is very rare here. I also consider that if a restaurant or bar charges a service fee on the bill, I decline to pay any tips.

dave16192 yes in Jakarta everywhere they add taxes and services on the final bill whereas in Bali I would say 50/50. I have the same practice, the service charge is already forced one but a tip.

That is false advertising. It says no tax and service charge but clearly shows this already added to the prices. Clearly they lack the ability to know the difference?

dave16192 it is already added into their prices

I can see that but stating NO TAX AND SERVICE CHARGE at the top is incorrect. What it should say is, TAX AND SERVICES INCLUDED IN THE PRICE. The difference is in the detail.?

dave16192 it says on their menu

, read it again as it contradicts itself.?

dave16192 are you living and working and running a business here in Bali?

Nope. Just from Jakarta. Why?

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Yup. Normal in Indonesia. Places in Jakarta also often clarify this on the bill.

Yes Martin, I am questioning the legality, and being advised across another blog that it is practice, but not a legal requirement

peter8966 law

peter8966 it's not legal requirement for the company to do it, But if they do it's their right

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Check the booking page of the website. If it states this clearly on the website, as most do, you won't have a leg to stand on.

Not according to Tripadvisors advice on hotels rights to charge this....they are very clear on my rights to refuse

Cannot refuse.. It's comoulsory as written in the menu, all the service charge money goes to the staff so why is this an issue, the business has the decision to charge but must be 5 % minimum

peter8966 you legally cannot refuse

peter8966, tripadvisor and blog post are not the law. I don't have the correct pasal, but yes, service charge is perfectly legal by law.

olivier34 tripadvisors advice is clear. Just checking, are you in the hospitality industry? The 5% to be paid monthly to staff is ‘ to be calculated from the company’s gross’. Without someone on this page clearly stating the law, chapter and verse, I put it to you that this industry practice is unenforceable, and has been created by business as a way to ‘ pass off’ their legal requirements to their staff from them to their customers, Service is something the customer has a right to put a price on....

peter8966... trip advisor doesn't give advise nor does it write the law. People write reviews and opinions on TA. The service charge is a law enforced by manpower. And yes, I'm in hospitality business.

Not correct....TripAdvisor DOES have a section where it advises consumer rights

Peter, if you know it all and we don't, why seeking advise? Go ahead, refuse to pay, sue them and ruin the rest of your holiday.

I do not think Trip Advisor can be considered a legal expert in matters such as this. Please stand by as I am in the hospitality industry and have consulted two lawyers whom will answer me today.

Hi peter8966 I agree with you that this is not the right way to do business. My best advice is that you avoid hotels, restaurants etc. which do not include both Tax and service charges in their pricing.

olivier34 exactly

Trip Advisor can not be a legal source

Hi Tom, no one has been able to provide any legislation allowing businesses in Indonesia to levy a service charge. One would think for all the grandstanding it would been supplied by now, to shoot my position down... I put it to you...it doesn’t exist

peter8966 I have a pdf of it I will message it to you

peter8966 it exists and not worth fighting it. Stop imposing your beliefs on an Eastern Country with your Western beliefs.

The 10% government tax plus the 11% service is heavily monitored by the Government. Inclusive in price or not, it must be paid. Government is now connecting your POS to their systems. Pay up or shut up. Abide by these country laws and regulations

What rubbish Tom...you have no idea who I am...or my belief system...you just attempted to act in a very ignorant manner...please refrain

peter8966 then get your facts right Sir

jonathan5 even if you avoid hotels etc that "do not include taxes and service in their pricing" you are a.) either paying it and it is included already in the price or b.) the business is illegal and therefore does not pay taxes to the government nor their staff the legally required service....

I do have Tom, whilst the 10% tax is legislated, no one, despite my many requests can provide any reference to the legislation RE the service charge. Can you? I put it to you, until proven differently, it doesn’t exist

peter8966 quit arguing and check your private messages look in the "other" box you will see the pdf of the law

peter8966... any more questions, please contact Kantor Disnaker: 0363/21647

peter8966 but you obviously do know who you are..... "The weight of self importance is the greatest burden a man can bare".

Sama sama

peter8966 you're hilarious!! Thank you!!! ???

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You could complain on Trip Advisor

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The lower taxes in the Philippines and the virgin beaches did not come to many

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5 million rupees five hours too long

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Chalk the 11% up to a learning experience and remember next time you go to a hotel. Not worth your time to examine the legality of this.

Yup!!

You pay this every time, it just depends on what the hotel write on the menu or charge sheet.

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And i do not know how they can charge a 5 hours trip to Komodo 5 millions, a day dive trip is less than 100euros?

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It's a 10%+ taxes (hence 11%) and you cannot refuse to pay. It goes to the staff after a deductible for loss and breakage (normally 2%) that it's redistributed at the end of the year if unused or partially used to replace broken or lost items. The service charge percentage is variable and it's normally negotiated with representative of the staff every few years. You are required to pay for it by law. If you can't afford to pay for it, choose different establishments... In Labuan Bajo if you can't afford to charter a boat, you can use one of the many other options, which are way cheaper.

That’s the correct answer.

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Better go to places that advertise as already inclusive

Theres nothing special about Komodo except some fat lizards. The rest looks the same as anywhere east of Bali

The statement is so funny

Well they are fat lizards. Overfed for safety They only get excited when a menstruating woman turns up:))

They can smell it over a mile off

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Consider tip as service charge in indonesia.. but usually people still keep giving tips for the service..

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5 million 5 hours for Komodo trip. Waoww...... I can make for you 2 days 1 night trip in Komodo national park

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10 Government tax and >= 5% service is normal in Indonesia. Service can go up to 21%.

Service can go up to 10%. 21% are the total taxes as service is also taxed.

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As common as this + 21 % is, I too find it deeply offensive. In Europe we have laws against this kind of almost fraudulent billing and we can only hope that one day Indonesia will follow suit. As for how much of those 21 % go into owner’s pocket one can only guess. But if you’ve lived long enough in Indonesia you will probably be fairly skeptic!

In Europe whe have just in b2c to display prices includiing tax, but in b2b you show also price excl. Tax. Whe just don't have the habit. Ps a owner risk prison it he don't redistibute the service charge if an employee Complain

marcel5 Makes perfect sense: B2b can deduct sales tax and other taxes. But that is not the case here: When I go to Bali Bakery and see a bread displayed for 17k it is reasonable to believe that is the price I will have to pay. But try to hand exact change and they’ll inform you that the price is closer to 19k. That is misleading. Ps. Oh! So they must all be legit, then!! LOL!!

Its misleading because you don't have the habit. We are just to assisted

"deeply offensive" ??

In Europe your tax is calculated in the price. Its maybe not in your face but customer still pays. Same goes for Indonesian businesses who claim all inclusive...

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Whether it's legal or not is completely pointless to debate. It is customary here, and so is a lot illegal stuff. You will never win a battle on this matter. or any other whether local custom is involved. It's best to accept it and be at peace or move on.

I suspect a law on this matter isn’t too far away. Remember when prices were listed in USD? That’s nearly all gone in only a couple of years. Ps. I’m fine paying for BOTH tax and service!

Well said Mr Bob. I stayed at a Kaluburu cottages in Java lastnight. Booked 2 identical rooms. Mine was 25% more expensive due to my nationality.

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Generally, anything that is not illegal is legal. It is not illegal to charge service, therefore it is legal.

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That's called "pick up an insignificant fight to loose and ruin the vacation"

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Try going to the States and not tipping Indonesia has had this in most hotels and restaurants for the last 25 years perfectly legal don't like it don't come

What will happen if you are in the States and refuse to tip?

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It's a complete rip off. And believe the so called service charge only partly goes to the workers. Massage 800 for 90 minuts?? You must be kidding as is the boat trip. Next time spend more orientation time on these costs/expenses.

Its not a ripoff its a legal requirement for every hotel or restaurant business, tax IS 11%, service has to be between 6% and 10%. Whether or not its written on the bill, you always pay it. As the business is a hotel, you must pay it on all services.

guy8 the total price structure: (Price + 10% SC) + 10% Tax. Example: (100 + 10) = 110 110 + 11 = 121

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You don’t tip that’s the service charge.

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I always ask is that going to the staff, who would know but as long as service is written iv tipped

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Indonesian 21% tax: 21% added to the bill is 10% VAT ( mandatory government tax) + 11% service charge (service charge may vary from 5,5 to 11% - depends on the establishment. A legally unenforceable service charge). Tipping is not mandatory. However, if you want to tip, perhaps provide 5-10% of the total bill. This is Indonesian Tax law and this is not rip off and don't compare with other country government tax. Restaurants: some restaurants will include 5-10% service charge to their bill. But if they don't levy any service charge, you can tip between Rp10,000 to 10% of the total bill. A 10% Government mandated restaurant tax is applicable, but smaller restaurants and certainly warungs will not be levying that and would likely never pay it to the government if they did. Taxi drivers: tipping is not mandatory. Although all taxis are metered, some drivers do not carry either coins or small notes, or may not be able to locate them when required. Many passengers round up thier bill. For example if your taxi meter shows Rp27,750. You might round up to Rp30,000. Car-hire drivers: It is not mandatory; however if service is satisfactory a basic Rp 20,000 tip is deemed appropriate. (Full day Car-hire drivers generally expect a larger tip.) Petrol currently costs Rp6.500 per Litre - September 2013 - common Government subsidized rate. Airport porters: You don't have to use them, but for very little money they can be a big help especially going through customs and it makes a difference to them. It range from Rp. 20.000 - Rp. 50.0000 for 1-2 travellers. it is advisable to agree rate in advance to avoid arguments afterwards. Service industries: although it is not mandatory to give tip for services such as hair salons and body massage, tipping for service industries are common and expected in Indonesia. Most Indonesians give tip to their hairdresser or massaeur after they completed the service. 5-10% from the bills are appropriate.

Very helpful. In my experience, tipping for good service in Indonesia is a good way to assure I always get good service in that establishment.

I would add, that the company (if a registered and taxpaying one) has to pay service too, so if its not itmeised on the bill, its still paid...... but tipping is a different question.

the total price structure: (Price + 10% SC) + 10% Tax. Example: (100 + 10) = 110 110 + 11 = 121

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I still fight the 3% most try and charge when paying by card. I explain that it is totally illegal but they insist it is not. Half the time I cannot be bothered to fight and just put up with it....

Thats because it is not illegal, it is a bank directive (not law) that says a company should not charge the customer the credit card charge. However they can add a charge for anything they feel like. What the banks dont like, is the resto saying that the guest must pay the bank charge. A question of wording. They can charge my guests for the time it takes them to use the machine. 3%.

guy8 this is long but informative..... 9/10/2017) CNN Indonesia reports that PT Bank Central Asia (Bank BCA) is emphasizing merchants using credit card accounts must not make any additional charge to cover the cost of credit card commissions and that these supplemental credit charges levied by merchants is expressively forbidden in the agreements in place between the bank and the merchant.

Santoso, a BCA director, said on Friday, September 8, 2017: “Any amount of surcharge, be it 2.5% or 4% we do not accept if it's a BCA credit card used in Electronic Data Capture (EDA) machine used by our bank or another bank. There is no such charge.”

Santoso urged credit card holders to become more critical and refuse any credit card transaction where an additional credit card usage fee is sought. When such charges are sought, he urged that the offending merchant be reported immediately to the bank.

“We will warn merchants and may even terminate our agreement with those who apply a credit card surcharge. But, we need a report from the cardholder in order to detect such practice.

A similar sentiment was sounded by the CEO of PT Bank Negara Indonesia (BNI), Achmad Baiquni. He warned merchants from even charging an additional 1% for any transactions involving credit or debit card.

The prohibition against these additional charges is specifically listed in the merchant agreement between the Bank and the merchant. Baiquini said his office would punish any merchant reported to be applying the additional charge in credit card transactions.

Many businesses charged 3% for sales transactions involving the use of a credit card. These charges, however, were outlawed by Bank Indonesia since 2011 via Bank Indonesia Regulation 11/11/PBI/2009 controlling credit card transactions.

Few consumers are aware of the rule and often still charge 3% more for payment by credit card.

Santoso said the application of additional charges for using credit cards is forbidden.

Minimum Transaction Charges Don’t Apply.

Merchants are also forbidden from stipulating minimum amounts to apply when using a credit card. The banks set no such minimums and efforts to do this by merchants are in direct opposition to Government programs to move towards a cashless society.

Santoso added: “At BCA we support a cashless society. It is therefore impossible that we would limit transactions.”

copied from http://www.balidiscovery.com/

Bank Indonesia regulates how banking works in Indonesia. It is their rule and their rule is considered a law according to the banking regulations in Indonesia. If people are arguing this is not a law as it is not enacted by parliament then they’re confused as there are many ways a country can make laws.

Not really accurate caroline. A bank can make banking laws which regulate other banks. But it cannot make laws that dictate how people should behave. A resto can charge what it likes, but the banks just said that we cannot tell the customer that it is the bank, charging them. But we can say, its the bank charging us, and thus we add 3%. I can add 8% onto all bills to psy for my imported whiskey habit, if i want. So long as i out the end price, or a statement to that effect, on the menu.

The clue, is in what to banker said, would happen if we still do it. A warning, and then maybe they take away the CC machine. Not arrested, no penalty, fine, police, process or court. Not a law.

guy8 Bank of Indonesia dictates the terms and conditions for how these credit card facilities operate.

Stu.... yes i read that already, the first time yhis came up some months ago. The synopsis is, the banks said that they have no charge to the paying customer for using a credit card machine, and the terms of the contract is that the merchant does not say that there is a bank charge. But the merchant can, for example, simply raise all prices by 3% and give a cash discount (effectively charging 3% to all CC users). Or have a staff member who gets a bonus for working the cc machine (3%). The banks do t regulate a merchants charges, unless the merchant claims its a bank charge. That would be misrepresentation. Misrepresention, in indonesia. You want to tell me, thats illegal? ?

The valid points are these.

  1. If going against the banks directive, you are in breach of contract, penalty is losing the machine.
  2. The merchant always charges you, the paying customer. For everything. All bank charges, taxes, expenditure, staff etc, all paid for by you.

And about Morals...... The bank doesnt want merchants to charge, because its in the banks interest to offer people free use of credit cards, whilst still making a profit......from people using credit cards. The merchant isnt using the credit card, the customer uses the system, and the banks force the merchant to pay for it, because then people feel its a free service, and overspend.... great for the bank. Merchants prefer cash.

Yes carolune, so they dictate, what the bank has to put in its contract with the merchant. If the merchant breaks those terms, its not a breach of law. The same as a car hire contract. If i break the terms, im not breaking the law.

Put it another way..... my argument is, banking laws dictate how banks behave. I cannot break banking laws, if i am not a bank.

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All resort hotels charge more total tax+ service than smaller establishments. I’m fairly certain all make it known at the time of booking or it’s written on the bottom of the menu etc. Try doing more research to discover hidden gems on the island that perhaps have a cheaper starting price

Hotels by Indonesian Law are required to charge for the accommodation, 10% service tax and 10% PPN tax based on the accommodation AND Service tax. Hotels are able to deduct 2% for training of staff and 5% for breakages of the TOTAL amount of service tax paid to staff. Service tax is regulary checked but the Dept of Taxation of the Province and also the Department of of MANPOWER.

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What's the fuss? This charge has been around since times memoriam. 10% is tax, and is governed by TAXATION LAW. On the total (net sales amount plus 10%) another 10% (hence the total 21% on the net sales) service charge is added. This is between client and seller, and is governed by CONTRACTUAL LAW. By agreeing to the purchase (to stay/eat at a premise) you have entered a contract. The only recourse would be, if the seller has intentionally hidden those charges. But all hotels/resorts mention it on their websites and price lists, and restaurants on their menus. It is therefor law. True, 21% is hefty and comes as a shocker to many when paying their bills. Singapore's system is similar. There the total is at 14%. But that's on Singapore prices. Even when Indonesia adds "ridiculous" 21% on its Rupiah prices, you've still got a good deal in real terms. To avoid the perceptual "shocker" to many, several operations in Indonesia build the tax and services charges into their cost and price their goods and services "inclusive". Or what I used to do, pay my staff a higher base salary and add 4% service charge only, totaling 15% on the net sales. Just do the math; at the end it all comes down to the same. You always get what you pay for. As to the cheaper boat rides: there are operators out there that will offer their boats so cheap, they might drown in the process. Then what? Oh yeah, you saved 21%!

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ITS THE LAW...!!!! YFF!

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Actually it isn’t the law..the service charge seems to be an industry practice. This is actually a consumer rights issue. A customer has the right to determine a tip, or service charge based on his definition of the service received. This is what I am fundamentally discussing.

no, it's part of the salary of the employe, it's not tip

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Ask your lawyer! Any contract is always subjected to CONTRACTUAL LAW. Not just in Indonesia. You have the right to refuse any contract - by not entering it. Not thereafter.

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It isn’t legal actually. It is unenforceable. As a person who spends a lot of time in the US I am accustomed to paying an 18% tip. However, if is still my right to determine if I will actually pay the tip, and if I don’t, or I pay a lower amount, it is because the service provided was poor....it is a basic consumer right. In Indonesia, industry practice, is not legislated, from what I am learning....so the issue becomes a business right to charge an 11% service fee....at all, and my right to determine the tip, based in the quality of the service provided. Industry practice for 25 years....who cares...you should pay on top of the charge based on the quality of the goods and services you receive. It seems it is perfectly legal to dispute this ‘service fee’.

If it was not legal why are there laws in place in Indonesia relating to the distribution of the service charge amongst the staff?

robert1 the manpower law is mandated requiring the business to pay their staff...there seems to be zero legislation saying the business can pass off the charge by on charging the consumer. It seems to be an unenforceable industry practice, and a blatant disregard of consumer rights...which in the end, whereby a consumer has the right to determine an additional payment for service based on the quality experienced, and an additional payment is the consumers right to quantify

Perhaps the question of an enforceable contract arises? If the price of goods on a menu or other such 'agreement' makes no mention of a 'service charge', then a consumer should have the right to refuse payment. The same should apply to VAT but that's less likely to be enforceable. Possibly the most effective option is to ask before ordering and leave before ordering if not satisfied.

Beside all the fuzz: with this attitude you will surely make friends with the locals! Anyway, at our place tax&service fee is included AND almost all give tips for the staff...and rest assured: they need it.

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I give up! I suggest you make a legal case out of this. It will teach you the facts. A published service charge is NOT a tip; it is part of the purchase price. Governed by CONTRACTUAL LAW. Anywhere.

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I actually am a lawyer Patrick... and my issue is consumer rights, and the right of a consumer to determine the quality of the goods or service required... any attempt by a business to impose a charge not legislated is to circumvent law... it is not enforceable, nor covered by contract law, if it is an attempt to not observe the law.

So, as a lawyer, they made an invitation to treat, you made an offer to buy, they agreed to your offer to buy and took your order. Which part of consumer contract law dont you understand?

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You are being Ripped off sir no tips already included.

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There are laws in place to regulate the distribution of service charge. If the service charge was in fact illegal then there couldn’t be a law regulating its distribution would there..?

http://m.hukumonline.com/klinik/detail/lt54e748897208f/pemberlakuan-uang-servis-hotel-dan-restoran

This regulation only rule hotel and restaurant at hotel. It's compulsory to apply service charge at hotel and restaurant at hotel. It's OPTIONAL for other type of businesses to apply the charge. Customer should just leave the establishment if they disagree with service charge terms that usually printed on the menu.

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I respect your opinions Peter but I suggest that like many tourists do, maybe not so expats, just go to places that don't have the tax and charges.

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I am not arguing against the employee right to be paid this fee...I AM arguing the industry practice of passing it on, on top of the charge for the goods and service provided, is not legislated, and therefore unenforceable. It is a basic consumer right to determine a further payment based on the quality of the service provided...and the industry practice of including it as a service charge is unenforceable....

what is the difference, 1 they increase all price by 25% or they let it like this an add 21% as mentioned and informed to you before you order?

it's part of the price, nothing to do with tiping

It isn’t enforceable under law.... the consumer has a right not to accept the service charge, and determine any additional payment, if any, based on his experience.. industry practice does not make it enforceable, if not legislated.. it is an attempt to deny the consumer his rights

Peter Noble the make a court case, will see your chance, I will put 100'000 on that you fail. (ps IDR)

we all waiting that you do it as most all of us don't like the way it's, but we live with it.

peter8966 please show us the law where we "the consumer has a right not to accept the service charge,"

I don’t need to do that arced... if you own a business, and you impose any additional charges, and I query them, if you cannot show me legislation giving you the right to impose those charges, I have a right to refuse to pay them.

sorry, a price list is part of a contract, if its written on the contract the only right you have is to go somewhere else where the condition fits better your desire. final point

A business cannot create a charge to circumvent the law of the land, therefore it is an unenforceable contract... and my point remains

I can charge whatever I want (as long they are no law against it) in my business as long as I display the prices and that they are no hidden to the customer before he does the order.

The service charge of 11% is NOT based on if you are happy for good, bad, quality service or not. It is by law to cover for breakage of porcelain, glass, losses etc. And also minimum 5% bonus for workers NOT related to service quality. If anything left over from the 11%, it can be as bonuses for Managers and owners as well, will be decided by management how to distribute it. For the appreciation of service given, a tip which amount is decided by the customer, can but not have to, be paid.

The tax is mandated by government law, if you dont like that go complain to the government. Its no different to europe showing prices + VAT. Or australia prices + gst.

Now the service charge, its not compulsory to charge it, but once it is printed on a menu or wherever and you place an order, then by contract law once they take your order there is a contract and that is enforceable by law.

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I suggest people keep their writing finger firmly tucked away until they know what they are talking about. So much rubbish dressed up as facts.

I'm confused. Isn't that what this site is about, to confuse people?

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Shit, bugger this, let's just all meet down the beach and get pissed.??

I like the second part, but..... all?

Well just you and me Guy. At least we won't be paying a service charge down there. ?????

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ALL places that are registered, pay this tax and service. Some just dont write it in the bill, i.e. include it in the price. Some local places, dont pay tax, but still add it onto the bill.

Some local places, don't pay tax, but still, add it to the bill. That would be illegal no?

but who care

Im not sure if misrepresentation or lying is illegal here, its certainly a mainstay of business culture.

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Peter, you arent an indonesian lawyer, no?

I’m not... but legislation is something any lawyer can comprehend... and attempting to circumvent legislations requirement to pay staff, by passing it on to the consumer, is unenforceable, unless legislated as the methodology for the collection. Which it seems it isn’t. Industry practice here, seems to not address consumer rights

The service charge is a legal requirement, to ensure that part of the salary is workload related, and untaxed. Quite simple really For some reason you ask a quextion but keep on stating spurious facts instead of listening. Why bother?

guy8 are you in the hospitality industry Guy, if you have a vested interest, please declare it,

I already mentioned that, but in what way is it relevant? You arent in court, and to be honest, you have been answered but continue to be arrogant in your replies. I help my wife run a small hotel and resto. We pay our staff 10% service charge, which means that all income is reduced by a total of 21%, in service charge and taxes. Any tips, also go directly to the staff. There ARE laws about the service charge.

Please name the law giving you the right to pass it on to the consumer Guy...I put it to you,,,you cannot

Minister of Labor Decree no 7 2016 about service charge at hotel and restaurant at hotel. This regulation only rule hotel and restaurant at hotel. It's compulsory to apply service charge at hotel and restaurant at hotel. It's OPTIONAL for other type of businesses to apply the charge. Customer should just leave the establishment if they disagree with service charge terms that usually printed on the menu.

Once again up here: I think the method of collection is pretty much contained in the legal definition of "uang servis" in Article 1 point 1 of the regulation. The "uang servis" is defined as a "tambahan" (addition) on the "tarif" (consumer price) which has already been set beforehand.

So the answer to the question "name the law" should be: Pasal 1 Poin 1 of Permenaker Nomor 7 Tahun 2016. Have a nice day, everybody! (drops mic).

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In bali service is mandatory and taxes of course too. I believe there is nothing special about it....reporting on trip advisor is the most silly thing you should do.

Report the high price Shitty massage & service

Hoteliers will just ignore the negative TripAdvisor review and get it removed..Easy!?

Getting it removed is easy? How?

If unfunded yes

Many restaurants add a minimum percent tip to protect their workers. In most of the world, tipping is not a custom and a tip is automatically added to the bill. This is normal and usual. The tourists who come from these countries, don't realize that they are supposed to tip the wait staff and they walk out without tipping.

marcel5 noits not, I have tried. There are a very narrow set of rules they have to break, to have it removed, and its very rare that those rules are broken. If you know how I can get reviews removed that I know my competitior bribed people to say about my place, please tell me!

jon66 ple read the thread. This is NOT about tipping. its about the inductry standard workers Bonus, that comes out of the Income. They call it the "service charge" but its not actually an extra charge. Any (normal, registered, tax paying) restaurant saying that its not included in the bill, is simply lying, or not paying his workers properly.

guy8, maybe I got lucky or it was because I was able to prove that It was a wrong allegation.

marcel5 Yes,I tried that- the culprit said I was over 2x more expensive than all the normal tourist warungs in Bali. Easy to prove wrong, but Tripadvisor just sent an automated answer back. Also my complaint didnt fit into any of their pre-set categories.... Luckily 1 review at 2 stars, didnt do too much damage against 15 at 5 star.

guy8 just get in contact with TA in Singapore.. Wrong or misleading review, TA will remove the review

fabian3520 - I will try it!! (interested to see how I can know I am speaking to Singapore..... maybe the accent haha)

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One last word, the service charge system is NOT a tip. It is part of the pay structure, where it gives the staff a work-related bonus, which the restaurant owner doesnt have to pay 10% tax on.

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The 10% tax is law...the 11% “service charge” isn’t. And is therefore the consumers right to determine any extra payment paid, based on his experience of the goods and service provided. 5% payment to staff monthly is legislated. The industry has attempted to pass this on to the consumer.. the consumer has a right to say no.

Mate, get a coffee and relax..!!!

Is that wIth or without the service charge? ?

You can have the right to say "no" before you use the service. If you disagree with their terms don't get into the agreement, just leave the establishment.

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Next time you plan traveling to a foreign country, buy yourself a travel guide book, read it, think - and then book!

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I live in this country... and have a passionate interest in it operating in a transparent and legal manner

Good luck with that, try getting them to learn and follow road rules first.

Adapt then! This is Asia! Some Western heads may have difficulties with it...but still, adapt!

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Look.all hotel /restaurant companies must pay tax and service on income. Either they can put a price of 121000 on the menu (for example) and say it includes tax and service, or put a price of 100,000 and add it later. Both ways, you pay the same, both ways, the staff and tax get their money, bot wats, you get the same product. You seem to be gettung confused about this simple mathematics.

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If they say they are taking service and dont pass it on to the staff, they are being dishonest. Writing a different menu wont help.

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Totally arse about face, mate. This isnt america, and NO, legislation is different in different countries. Until you know something, just ask and listen.

Way you speak...you sound Australian...am I right?

no

Irrelevant, can the court please strike that from the record.

Oh no, wait, this isnt a law court right..... its the Real World, where what actually happens, is more important than what a Lawyer thinks should happen.

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How you write or explain your prices, is just that an explanation. The key is in what is written on your menu. To explain your pricing system. The breakdown is just that a breakdown of how the price is arrived at. I am nett in my business as a pricing model. It means I pay all those costs in my quoted price. Some business are plus which means the Pay the staff costs in the price but charge the tax extra. Some are plus plus which means the price shown per service and then a price for the tax above that figure and a price for the staff above that figure. You could have a clean water figure disclosed it’s all still okay... It’s just breaking down the figures. But the 3 methods are all used here. Depends on the business model.

Thank you Silastry... Selamat pagi....your net business model, is, from what I can see, adhering to the intention of the law....I can then determine, based on the service you provide, the amount I will pay on top for the service... thank you for providing a transparent explanation, and you respect contained within your reply... something too many westerners fail to learn, no matter how many years they have lived in Indonesia.

Thanks Peter, It’s not on top. It’s the total price paid. Nothing extra to pay. All those extra prices just paid by me from the money that Comes in. It’s all about expectations. Menus or price lists which are plus or plus plus need to very clearly say that. Other wise it can cause difficulties. And we want guests to Indonesia to have a happy Experience based on expectations. ? Our country has a lot to offer and the more pre Knowledge tourists have the more they will enjoy.

peter8966 oh the irony!!!

ThNk you Sulastry. selamat Pagi. Therr is a lot of misinformation available about the service charge... including TripAdvisor in its Indonesia report saying it is unenforceable... this is not helpful for someone attempting to discover the facts... and I agree with you... the more knowledge tourists have... the more they can enjoy the experience of your wonderful country.... wishing you a wonderful day

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My advice is every country has as a local Community page Log on to it ie ubud community. FLORES community. Or Dark side of Bali. Bali crime reports. Flores crime report. Just check your location. TripAdvisor. Check reviews

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Give up guys. He can not accept that he is in a different country and he does not want to enjoy his holidays. So let him have it his way...

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I live here Norbert Binder....just letting you know

Me too ?... and because I enjoy it. Enjoy too!

norbert43 I do Norbert...but be damned if I will pay a service charge for bad service, bad goods, or shitty food...do you?

Sorry, 'nuff said.

The service charge isnt for that. Its a work related part of the salary. You also, with your money, pay for the chair you sit on, the music.... it all comes out of that cash you pay. Or where do you think it comes from? Do you think we shoukd write that the price, is what we get out, net, after all expenses? The price, is what it costs you. Simple.

You should have checked the menu before.....

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No,Guy, I’m not actually... you seem to be confusing, assuming you are in an industry which requires payment of 5% is it in you gross or net income monthly? And this not being built into your costings... to pass the 5% on as 11% including 1% tax, does not see, to be legislated, and is therefore unenforceable... my right as a consumer is to evaluate the goods and services provided and to,agree or not with the service charge. How can you advocate charging me for something you don’t have a legal right to charge, and whilst we are at it....where does the additional 5% come from?

What additional 5%? The price is the price, i can set it where i want. I then infirm the guest a little as to where it goes. Your evaluation is completely wrong, all seeming based on the idea that the cinsumer can tell the merchant, what to charge. Your rights begin and end with ordering food, or not. Indonesia does not, unlike the states, have its head shoved up its arse by lawyers trying to make everything into a case.

Thanks for personalising the matter Guy.. if you provide me with Bad service at your establishment, bad food or anything else unacceptable you will not be getting paid a service charge. Or do you think you don’t need to meet those standards at your establishment?

Peter, did you received a bad service in the place that charged you 21%, and if so did you take it up to the manager or just ranting on Facebook? I also run a business and charge 21% but if guests have valid complaints we try to solve the matter, even if that means given a meal for free. Just saying...

Then i will have you arrested. The service charge is not an extra charge, its part of the price, as is a small part for new furniture, lighting, and my childs education. A tip is at your discretion.

Peter, yes, actually, i do set those standards. We do the staff training, hiring, etc. Do you think you set those standards? Why you? Why not the next customer, or the one before. Why not my Mum, or the neighbour? So silly, self importance gone crazy.

When you are not winning an argument....abuse... So Guy, I come to your business, and find reason to complain about what you have provided...what do you then do?

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I think 11% is tax and service charge 10%...... No?

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11% tax and 10% service charge is normal in most 5 starts hotel and restaurant in Bali. If you really like the service, you can add extra tip. Service charge usually split amount all staff in the establishment including the gardener cooks dish washer etc who dont have direct guests contact but receive as part of their salary.. if you don't lime the service, just don't go any more.

And if the service is poor then you get no choice but to pay for bad service.

Yes. Correct. As it is commented above.. either they build into the price or they split it.. but you still have to pay as part of the pricing structure..

paul2 thanks Paul....THAT is the issue with the service charge... not only is it not legislated by law, albeit it is industry practice, it has been loaded toward the consumer on top of passing on the 5% payment legislated to,pay staff, it now has another 5% to pay, hold it, breakages etc etc. if this isn’t a royal con job, I don’t know what is.. not only is it unenforceable legally, it seems to be imposed no matter how bad the service is....and if you complain...what happens then all you hospitality providers carping in here about your rights to charge me for any level of service... cmon... be real

selena89792 you don’t actually.. if the service is NOT acceptable.. you have every right to refuse paying...

Service charge is actually legislated by law in Indonesia. You can search on google.

Hi Desy, I have found information saying it isn’t. So what exactly do I need to enter on Google to prove what you say?

Peraturan menteri ketenagakerjaan no. 7 tahun 2016

Pasal 2 ayat 2: pengusaha yang menjalankan usaha hotel......etc etc dapat memberlakukan uang service.

lik e like like

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I have the money Nicola....are you saying I should just give it to your establishment anyway. No matter the level of service provided....surely not

No, it's not the point. If you don't like the service/product, ask for a refund, complain with the manager, never go back to that place, don't try to make a point on a system that is in place, legal and not at all fraud like it seems, but correct me if i'm wrong, that you are implying in your OP.

What I don't like of your post is that you are assuming that it's a fraud, that the greedy owner is trying to rip you off (at least this is how i read it)

nicola55749 no Nicola, that is your assumption. I am talking about consumer rights here actually, and my right to decide if a service provided is actually at the standard where I agree to pay a service charge... or not. Pretty simple really. Or are you advocating I should just pay for bad service, bad food etc.. and meekly leave the building. Sorry, ain’t gonna happen.. EVER

Consumer rights of what? What are you talking about? You have the right to never go back, or AGAIN, to ask a refund. The charge is stated on the menu, you don't want to pay, just go somewhere else, ain't it easy?

You don’t seem to be getting what I am saying... which is the service charge is unenforceable by law...even though it is industry practice.. no one has been able to prove otherwise. If you have something to the contrary, please provide. There are consumer rights, and a basic one is to tip or pay a “service” charge, based on the quality of the service...which is my point

Everybody in the Hospitality industry loves people like you peter8966..

And another one we love ❤!!!

I have a very very good tip for you and I give it for free without tax and bla bla Cook at home!! Eat at home!!

Were there is a service charge I never tip. And most places dont shear with staff anyway. And does the place pay any tax to the government. Maybe take a picture of the menu and send to the Tax office and say are you the government receiving Tax from this place.

Then dont call it Hospitality because it's Not

For sure you can define the word hospitality..?

Peter, you are confused by your definition of the words Service Charge. Its an english phrase, but you are in indo. You are assuming that it means what it would mean in the USA It doesnt. It means, a sum that the business must pay its staff. Some use it, and tax, to make the prices seem less.... some would argue, the business is informing you, what money actually goes into the business, and what comes out as tax. Thinking that you are actually beung charged that amount, is really over simplified. You are being charged The Price. Out of that price comes tax & service. Finish.

peter8966 "You don’t seem to be getting what I am saying... which is the service charge is unenforceable by law...even though it is industry practice.. no one has been able to prove otherwise. If you have something to the contrary, please provide. There are consumer rights, and a basic one is to tip or pay a “service” charge, based on the quality of the service...which is my point" You are also not proving otherwise. Prouve us that we all do wrong. prove us that we don't have the right to separate on our price list the fee for the good and the fee for the service and the tax,

I have worked in a number of places in Bali and have many local and western friends in the island.

I don’t know how you come to the conclusion that the majority of businesses do not pay the service charge to their staff.

Everywhere I have worked in Bali shares the service charge equally.

Because he has no clue!! ?

It is required by law to pay 5% monthly of the business gross to the staff.... the service charge has been created to charge on this legal requirement to the customer, and then doubled for unsubstantiated reasons... that is industry practice. What cannot be supplied is the legislation allowing the business to do that... and the assertion therefore is it is unenforceable, should the consumer dispute the quality of the service provided. That simple... if you stand by your product, and the customer disputes the quality of the service...they have have a right to decline to pay the service charge.... of course they are not coming back to the business....but that hardly addresses any dispute over the service provided... In the end, it is all about the quality of service provided, and whether the business stands by maintaining that quality, and what it does if there is a dispute., In my case in Flores, the business today has advised they will not chargefor the disputed service...the German manager says he had to call head office to get their approval. hence no service charge....however, if they had not..I would have had to pay for the service, and then I would have disputed the service charge and refused to pay. I have learnt a lot about the service charge, applicable legislation, and lack of, and the attitude of the hospitality industry toward it...hardly any have said, that if a customer has an issue with a service, that it will be investigated fully, and an appropriate solution occur. Which in the end, as a consumer, is what you expect. I would hope. Thanks

You dont need legislation to do things, so long as there is no legislation, saying you cannot do it. Lawyers! Pah.

I’m befuddled by your logic... honestly, that makes no sense at all. But in the end...what do YOU do in your business to address customer complaints. That is what this is all about

Lets try another way. The service charge is not a charge to the customer for the service (it just sounds like it, lost in translation). Its a work-indexed bonus paid by the company to the staff, from the company's income.

No, not at all.... YOU are confusing your customer complaint, with the service bonus. The service bonus is not quality dependant. Its a fixed percentage. If you feel you are being overcharged for anything, thats different!

So if I have a problem with a service you supply Guy....I speak with you, and we work something out...or not...is how you run your business?

He needs a hobby!!!

This is a whole lot of stress over what would possibly equal the price of a cup of coffee.

It’s service charge. Now whether you got good or bad service is really subjective. But they gave you service of some sort.

I cannot believe you have lived in Bali for some time and have never been charged for service.

That is incredulous.

Hi, as I said, I frequent local businesses...and avoid the tourist areas... I never rarely pay service charges....but my question is about their legality and enforceability.... jury is out in that...

In my case a charge of 1.2 million was charged at a destination resort in Flores plus a service charge at a resort for a manicure pedicure. I accept I entered into getting the service...however, what was provided was sub standard... it took the resort 24 hours to accept that and not charge.... they had no chance of being paid a service charge on top in this instance if they stood by their charges...

Peter, of course if you have a problem, you report it, and management come and help you. Refund, voucher, whatever. But dont confuse it with the service charge, cos the management has to pay the workers that, whatever quality the work is, and it comes out of the bill price.

Peter if you always eat local, its mostly unregistered business, and the family just runs it hand to mouth. No taxes paid. Children working. No healthcare, low prices cos of low expectations, well below what you would call an acceptable poverty line. But now you want to get all Legal on us? Wake up man.

And btw they didnt refund you cos they accepted your point of view. Totally irrelevant. They had to contact upper management to confirm the refund/discount, otherwise they get into trouble. It was allowed, because you were being a pain in the ass.

Yep. You said it best. Entitled viewpoint. Doesn't realize when he profits from unfair system. He likes cheap Warung price and does not realize that warung are part of an unjust economic system of people having just enough to scrape by.

fabian3520 He has one.....ego.

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peter8966 21% tax and service charge is normal for resort. It is on our regulation. As local, i also pay same amount + 21%, if i eat in hotel's restaurant or stay there.

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Keep the receipts & ask for a rebate...?

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I had my honeymoon in Flores love the place I think maybe it's a new Bali just check what it says on the menu then you wont be disappointed

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peter8966 Guys seems you confuse service charge....which is stated AS BEING PART OF THE PRICE before you order food or pay your accommodation and tips/gratuity when you can choose if give or not the amount you believe appropriate to that waiter or hotel staff.

outstanding point.

Yes, I told th P that ages ago, but he doesnt listen to inconvenient truths.

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See, everyone, here we have a fine example of Theory over Practice. Practice is, we have a system to pay staff a work related bonus, which is untaxed. A bonus over and above the legal pay minimums. Practice is, if they dont pay it, the staff strike, the local government takes away the business licenses. Theory is, the restos cant take this money, its unethical and illegal. So the staff get less wages. To protect them, apparently.

Luckily this is indonesia so the theorist can go play with a dragon (which he did, and got chsrged 5x the normal price, but it wasnt a Service Charge so thats ok.)

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This is the law that governs how the service is collected, spent and paid out to employees - http://ditjenpp.kemenkumham.go.id/arsip/bn/2016/bn376-2016.pdf

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I run a large hotel and 11% is Government tax and 10% is service charge. By government regulation 95% of the service charge MUST go back to the employees. The 5% can be used to recoup loss and breakage and social services/committees etc. The employees pay tax on the service charge that they receive. It CANNOT be used to offset salaries!

When i said not taxed, i meant the company is taxed on the net, after service charge removed.

Thank Craig, and is the service charge law, or industry practice?

Actually the service is 10% and the tax on the whole income is 10% too. Industry practice (this is not backed up from any law) sums up the 2 and calculate "wrongly" +21% in Service and taxes.?

Its not industry practice.. its back up by law.... Geezzzz same like tax.. service charge should be paid.

21% is coming from.. 10% service charge,10% dispenda tax / province. 1% final tax / state.

Service charge HAS to be paid or you dont have a business any more. In our business registration, the service charge is listed as a requirement, from the local council. As is the fact we must use all local staff (ALL)....that means from this village. Thats not a legal requirement either. But we have to. Not everything must be written down by law, for it to be, de facto, necessary.

But it is written down by law.. there is people attached the PP...aka Peraturan Pemerintah. Which is law!

Agreed!

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Hello aids, again I state this is an industry practice not covered by legislation, and therefore is unenforceable if disputed

pm sent with the PDF it is not an industry practice it is the law as per Manpower. You can google translate the document. We are required to do this or we get fined or can lose our license.

Tori can you put this PDF in the main thread please?

guy8 it is above as a link...I do not know how to attach a PDF to a post? ??

This a law mandated by the government and enforced and regulated how it has to used. No variations.

tori3 thanks!

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Any tickets left for this years Bluesfest in Byron Bay, you do a great job with that Peter Noble

Past 80% sold out Eric.... thanks for outing me ??

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21% service charge means NO TIPS

Rubbish.

Its not a charge for good service, its a work indexed bonus. Based on indonesian cultural work ethis, it helps motivation in busy periods, so staff know if they process a lot of customers, they get more money. Work = pay.

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This conversation would make a good Monty Python sketch... Or the Indonesian version of the movie ‘300’...THIS IS INDONESIA!

More like Fawity Towers. John Cleese doing his German walk.

"Don't mention the service charge!"?

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I will try one more time. The service charge is not an extra charge to the customer in return for good service. It is a bonus payable to the staff to create a relation between number of customers processed (or money taken in) and amount earned. Its to motivate workers during the high season, and helps the businesses when its quiet. Its highly effective and springs from indonesian cultural values... get pay to go to work, and extra pay for being effective. Without it, workers dont try to upsell products so much, or work efficiently, and lack motivation when they are tired. Without tips, they dont try to give good service.

Unlike other industries where people get paid to do their bloody job! People work in a Service Industry and yet the customer has to pay to get them to do their job?

If the Service Charge is not an extra charge, but rather a Bonus, shouldn't the employer be paying the Bonus? Interesting to see the customer is also taxed by the government on the amount of service they pay too.

Paul like everywhere the custommer pay for the job done, it's just displayed differently

Marcel, indeed. The user always pays. And in Bars and Restaurants the full price is hardly ever calculated or displayed. Customers are presented with a final bill 21% higher than the prices stated in the menu. Rp 65k service charge on Rp 650k bottle of wine, Rp 150k on a Rp. 1.5 juta bottle of spirits. Yet the service component of both items is the same. Restaurant and bar owners don't show the final price of items so they don't scare off the customers.

Yes that is exactly what service charge is worldwide a % ot the bill

i saw in the maldies staff canine, where the real time service charge was displayed. So they was some locals stoping to work on the 28 of the month as they got enought SC

No paul.. tax that we pay on the bill is not include the service charge... The tax... Is 11% from 66000... (Before service charge)... But the employee who get the service charge has to pay income tax to government

We show the final price, cos i dont like it, but it always says when theres something to add on. People going on and on about their rights but dont want reponsibility....

Yes . If you look at the bill you will see the service charge is applied first ( 10%of 66,000), then the government tax is applied to everything(10% of 72,600), which also includes the service charge. Leaving the customer with a final bill of 79,860.

Government tax is not 10% of 72,600.... It's 11% of 66,000...... 10% goes to dispenda tax or province....and 1% goes to state.

Both are applied to the netto

I guess it's just a statistical anomaly that 11% of the pre service amount is equal to 10 % of the sum of the product charge and the service charge.

Nah....11% should be pay out to government... 10% to staff. Maybe to.customer sounds not much deal but for business owner it is.

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Personally i don't like the service charge also and this for 2 reasons, Ithe one that that hurt all you read a price, but don't take attention that it it will be adden and you end with a 21% higher bill as expected. And the second is as businesmann i don't like show my cashbook to the employee it's not their business what the companie earn expect wen whe have to pay this searvice charge they have thoes right.

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I quite agree!

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Make sure they are giving at least 5% to the staff. Is it legal: yes. But it's important that they post this tip info where you can read it before spending your hard earned cash.

Its not a tip. Its a percentage of the income given as a work related bonus. In other words, in food times of hard work the staff get more. In bad times of low income, the business has less stress.

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No it is not a ripoff of the tourists. There are many people who have a ridiculous amount of money, and to pay exorbitant rates mean nothing to them and makes them feel important and rich.

The rates that you mention are low compared to some. In Bali, it is possible to pay 50 million or more per night for a resort room

No. The top 5% pay more. 50 million would be slumming, for them.

Haha youre drunk. Bali is cheap 200,000 - 350,000 a night is the cost in Bali for what you get in Labuan Bajo for 600,000 a night If it wasnt for the italian restaurant on the hill that town would be just what it is. A slum harbour of sea gypsys

Only an idiot would pay over 5 million a night for a place to sleep. Beyond that its taking the piss, nothing gets better really

Reville Saw Implana 32+ Million, Ritz Carlton 17+ Million, Amathya 16+Million, Kunti Villas 19+ million, Villa Agung 14+ million, Ombak, 16+ million.

Should I go on? Theres lots more and the really expensive places, you won't find online. You would have to go through an exclusive agent and have lots of references.

reville467 you are showing yourself to be really, really ignorant, with a terrible attitude to the Indonesian people and country. . For a start the Italian resto opened because of the amount of people coming there, you think someone would open a Pizza parlour, in an "Indonesian Slum" as you call it? The people go there for the snorkelling and diving trips, thats what made it famous.

The people paying high prices dont live in LBJ, do they. Christ.

its a poor, traditional fishing village. Slum,is normally associated with overcrowding and suffering because of it. Yesterday you were hailing yourself as the new Saviour of the poor little brown people, and the only white person capable of understanding indonesians, and getting them to do everything you want with only a few minutes free time or an extra bunkus as thank you, I think this " outs " you definitively.

Thanks for that, you help my case immeasurably.

about 20 times. I commute from Bali to there. You were calling it a slum, of course now it has more western restaurants than mosques, but originally, and under it, its a fishing town (& transport).

With Saviour, I refer to your self-important rant from yesterday, telling us all how noone does it like you, helping all these people who do your extra workload, who dont even need real payment for it. Your not really stable mate - end of conversation.

good idea

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Yes. I guess you are referring to the top 5 %.

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Yes soo expensive prices. Im indonesian n im surprised to see the prices. Please dont be shy or hesitate to ask price bfr u buy...

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You should go to most Recommended hotel n read lots of reviews. See prices also. From application like traveloka, mister aladdin

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Too baad here ppl expecting lots of tourists to come, but they play the price n wants to monopoly the transportation. Ppl wont go to place where its full of money ripper. Lol.

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Get over it... this is Indonesia

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Does that gesture mean 'fuckoff'?

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At Scallywags Resorts we don’t charge tax or service how easy is that??

And it's not calculated in your price? There's a difference between not charging and having it included. How much for Nasi Campur? Bintang?

You might not state it in the price but taxes on income you will have to pay. ?

F

Of course the customer pays it. Its just you write the total price on your menus.

Or do you mean, you dont pay taxes, or give your staff service? Lets try this again. The customer pays for EVERYTHING including the chairs, tables, staff wages, taxes, service, your salary.

Nigel, you are paying taxes on your income so you ARE charging tax and service to the customer. It's just that you may not show this as ++ on the menu or bill. How else do you make a profit?

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Admin needs to clean this group up, its becoming a gossip centre for ignorant expats.

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Is charging $300 extra for 'front row' just a month before your 'inclusive' music festival ripping people off??

Go home.

I dont think anyone can understand what you mean, Michael..... I certainly dont.....

Guy Manners he will. This is a man that is complaining about paying a small service tax etc, but in Australia organises a music festival. Tickets are quite expensive. A month out, he just added an 'exclusive' area, what used to be front row, for people who loved their music and got there early. This exclusive area is now cordoned off and guests, who have already paid their ticket price, and will be charged $300AU for the right to be in that area. The same area they have already paid for. And he is now complaining about a small tax.

LTC!! Love that comment! Busted!

Actually the problem is that he is a lawyer, and has forgotton how to think straight.

His title doesn't determine his character. His actions do. The hypocrisy is staggering!!

I find that lawyers often have a problem with reality; their experience and training tells them that a convincing argument is enough to change reality.

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Of course tax and service is paid but it’s included in the price the price you see is the the price you pay no plus plus no credit card surcharge just a price. Of course you can be pedantic and say the customer pays in the end but how do you know? the business could be trading at a loss and still paying tax and service.

Your business is trading at a loss Nigel. You're losing your touch?

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saying that the customer pays in the end is not pedantic at all! Its the reality of the situation; the customers money pays for everything. Of course the business still pays tax and service - they pay it as a % of income, not of profit.

Bali....land of plus plus.

peter8966 Singapore is also mostly ++ on everything.

It's a fact of life in all SEAsia! Live with it or go elsewhere. You try to prove its illegal. It's not. Everybody tell you.

It’s actually not Phil. And I won’t be rude to you in my reply... as that is something I find repugnant.... it seems that prior to 2016... the charge was in fact unenforceable... albeit industry practice. An amendment to legislation was made that year which people on this forum are relying on. And since I live in Indonesia, where would you like me to go to?? Apart from tourist enclaves, where I steer clear of due to the rudeness and lack of manners of too many people who habituated them... thanks for you thoughtful response

If you want to have a nice meal with no stress, you just pay the price. It doesnt make it more expensive because its not an addon. If a resto has a dish which they can (due to market forces) charge 100k for, they will charge 100k. Of that, some will be passed on to the staff as their bonus, which is called Service charge. Whether you know it or not, like it or not, enforceable or not. This whole thing you keep going on about... enforceable..... is simply not relevant. Thats what i mean when i say, lawyers sometimes live in a strange world of their own.

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Preferred seating is a feature of festivals worldwide. And as it gives 12 hours viewing to see artists up close such as Robert Plant and Lauryn Hill to name a few.... front toe for artists the EAGLES was $800 on their last tour. How can you compare this to a resort charging 1.2 million plus 21% foF a sub standard manicure pedicure PLUS 21%... and as Indonesia is also my home, I don’t be leaving soon. Cheers mate

You're right, adding an extra charge, previously unannounced, to people months AFTER they have paid for something, that you led them to believe was already included, is perfectly ok!!

Thank you for showing the need to justify this!!

I guess those Indonesians that are up front about the taxes are so very wrong!!

And if Indonesia is also your home, then didn't you already know about this??

So why complain now??

Once again, expats who want to change the world to suit theirs.

Thank you for sharing your hypocrisy.

It's very telling.

Please, justify your money grab to those people who built your festival. I'm sure they'll all understand.

How very white... were did I mean right if you Michael. Looking at you pic. I wouldn’t want to bump into you in a dark alley... ??

Has zip to do with what I was originally posting about BTW

Peter Noble how very white?? So you're bringing colour into this too now?? And ad hominem now too??

Looking at my pic!!

Wow.

All class Peter, all class!!

Thank you.

You've brightened my already wonderful day!!

peter8966 zip? Complaining about extra charges??

Ok!!

Don't worry Peter, we won't bump into each other "in a dark alley", I don't frequent them!!

peter8966, I wouldn't worry about those extra charges.....I'm sure the extra $300AU you're now scalping from the people who built your festival should cover that extra 1juta or whatever you're complaining about!!

And just out of interest, you're complaining about a 21% hike in charges, correct me if I'm wrong....how much of a hike in charges is the extra $300 compared to the original ticket price, that patrons, the people paying you, bought tickets totally unaware of?? My math is obviously not at the standard yours is, so please, show me a number.

I think you have Anger issues Mick... how about staying on the subject. Or is being abusive your prime game... i have gone out of my way to not be abusive but to state an opinion.... and to have a debate... appreciate you taking kath in that... or finding somewhere else to download

Ok!!! Semantics are fun aren't they Pete!! So a debate is ok until someone presents a differing opinion or points out hypocrisy!!

Enjoy your day Pete!! Thanks for the entertainment!!

See ya

No. Stopped going to bluesfest too!!!

See lays get on subject. I think one of the worst features of the service charge is it’s name. Surely the name infers you are being charged for the service received... it has been put that is not correct. And it includes a 5% charge which is paid to staff monthly upon calculating the net takings... I have no idea how a company can calculate ongoing infrastructure spending, depreciation and ongoing variables so quickly.... unless a small business... the other 5% is a bit more mysterious, but includes breakage and other ‘costs’... it think it reasonable to have available a copy of the legislation that confers the right to make this charge should a customer want more information. And in the language of the world. ENGLISH... although Mandarin would be good as well... given Indonesia attempting to bring 19,000,00 Chinese. Tourists in 2019. This would go a long way toward customers understanding what they are bring billed for... the legislation allow the charge supplied on this thread is in Bahasa.... I’m amazed that businesses. Are relying on it when so many are operated by Westerners... I’ll try to post an English version so we can all understand Thanks

peter8966 Of course legislation for this is in Indonesian. That is clearly mandated by UU Nomor 24 Tahun 2009 in Pasal 26:

"Pasal 26 Bahasa Indonesia wajib digunakan dalam peraturan perundang-undangan."

While I understand that a translation would be nice for tourists who are asking for the legal source, such a translation would always be informal and for information purposes only. Supplying said translation would be up to the management of the establishment in question, I would say. If they see no need for it in their business, so be it.

BTW, I have seen so many bad translations of Indonesian laws and regulations by now that I would hardly trust anything someone hands to me in English without checking the original one first?

Thanks Jan Budweg....just wondering, how business can rely on using this document, without having a translation, so you know how to comply, and charge consumers under its direction?

You mean for internal purposes? I would hope that at least someone in management understands the Indonesian original or that they have appropriate legal consultants who do and can explain it to them. After all, that is part of regulatory compliance in business.

And while I really do not want to get involved any further in this already heated discussion, I recommend reading the Indonesian definition of uang servis ("service charge") in the first article of the 2016 regulation linked above:

"Uang servis adalah TAMBAHAN dari TARIF YANG SUDAH DITETAPKAN SEBELUMNYA dalam rangka jasa pelayanan pada usaha hotel dan usaha restoran di hotel."

My informal translation: It is an addition on top of a pre-set tarif for the customer.

So the menu or room price list shows that basic tarif for the customer, the "service charge" is added upon that tarif. And this is not a new definition, it was already the same in the previous 1999 regulation.

peter8966 are you for real? are you now questioning why the laws are written in Bahasa Indonesia? I think plenty people pointed you towards the correct law regarding the subject. I even provided you with a phone number. I also already asked you a specific question witch you failed to reply. You tried to make a point and you failed... suck it up.

"How businesses can rely on using this document......" etc because we are in indonesia, and it is no longer under colonial rule. So the legal and relevant business language is.... wait for it... English! Not!

What a cool head Jan has, my compliments.

guy8, language matters are actually one of the few topics where I feel a slight urge to become more emotional than usual? but since it is part of my profession, I cannot allow myself to get upset there.

Oh 'you' think!!

Abuse?? Where?? Are you referring to "looking at you (sic) pic. I wouldn't want to bump into you in a dark alley..."??

Oh wait. They're your words.

And looking at your pic.....

No, I've got more class than that!!

Have a good stay in Indo 'Pete'.

Hope those "sub standard" Indonesians and their cheap resorts don't spoil your stay!!

Lucky you've got those exorbitant prices of Byron to enjoy during YOUR parade!!

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The service charge is 10%... the total being 21% because there is tax on the service charge

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It's weird if you ask advise and ignore all what is been said. Maybe don't post it in Facebook but talk to a Mirror or a wall.

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The mirror wont work, hes been ignoring everyine who has told him what impression he gives.

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358 comments against, and rising. Must be a record?

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Wow...Day 3 & I'm looking forward to reading more comments...This has to be a 'Comments' record...?

and all against the OP!

not all, I said I don't the way it's done?

marcel5 an example, proving the rule

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So what is the actual Service Charge? Where is it stipulated? I have read menus that have had 5%, 10%,No Service Charge and Tax and Service Included printed on them.

service charge can vary,depending on the establishment (I hope noone starts to quote laws to me,Im talking about what you will really find in the real world) - if it says, no service charge it means the price you see is the price you pay, same as "service charge included". It probably means they do pay service but are showing you a total, gross price (Im using the word Gross there in the way Western accountants use it meaning the all inclusive price, btw, before someone corrects me). Im getting paranoid.

guy8, so when it all comes down to it, it would seem that "Service Charge" is a completely Discretionary and Arbitrary charge.

not really, its part of the working contract / agreement with the staff. Its a work-related bonus, and not an add-on to the price. Its a percentage of the total price, which the staff and workers get given directly, and is listed as "service charge" (slightly misleadingly - english is not the 1st language here) and is tax-deductable - that is, from the total price, the netto is worked out (price / 121*100) and then 10% of the netto, paid to the staff (with some small pre-agreed deductions.). Or put another way, its part of the hotels Pay policy, not Charge policy.

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This makes great reading, we should publish it. Just change all the names; except Peters.

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Whatever you like Guy Manners.. I STILL put it to you that the charge is confusing...is arbitrarily applied. Seems to have been value added, and that visitors would benefit from clear and concise advice in their language

its only the wording that you are being confused by - culture and language barrier. Its written in english, but english used lhere is not true english, its Indonesian english, and some things have different meanings from what you would exect. S the Service Charge, is not a charge at all; its not part of the charging system, its part of the salary/pay system, an agreement between the Management and the Staff.

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It’s Indonesia... just pay it and enjoy the lovely country

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Or go back where you came from!!!

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come to Pemuteran

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I love Pemuteran...my good friend there is Agung Bagus Mantra...he always invite me....beautiful diving, and National Park. His father make the coral reef there, and bring back prosperity to the village.. what a great man

Coral reef is man made?

His father made the coral reef? He must be very old, the coral reef has been there for about 20 million years, I believe. (I guess you mean Biorock. The first Biorock was made by Chris, owner of the first divecentre (Reef Scene), also the man who stopped the cyanide and bomb fishing thus allowing the diving industry in Pemuteran to flourish, the coral to recover.. Im beginning to feel like Im picking on you, mate, Pease realise, its just a reaction. Sorry.

.

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F#*k me silly. This is still going on.

ahh its flourished and had children now.

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I think time to block notifications on this one. You can do that mark778

yes....its been amusing, in the way that drinking cheap wine is.

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Ok so I am going to stop the commenting on this post. Getting dizzy

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