Seeing people here interpreting the laws, and giving advice,.(...Edited) Here,...

Seeing people here interpreting the laws, and giving advice,.(...Edited) Here, a quote, talking about spouse sponsored KITAS holders, and working in wifes business......can someone else please comment and explain about how dangerous this advice is (I dont know where to find the stuff from Imigrasi/Depnaker that supports my view). "Sorry but pasal 61 of the Immigration law clearly states that a foreign husband can work in Indonesia. When I asked immigration on how to understand that, they stated that I can work in my wife's business any time in uniform or not doesn't matter. Fix working hours don't matter. What matters according to immigration is that it is the wife's business. Same what the local office for business told me when I asked them to open a business. They said you can do what ever you want in your wife's business, so better put it under wife's name. No restrictions in wife's business."

Really...? No restictions? So you can be employed, without an IMTA?

So basically that's anything if your spouse sets up a company and sub contracts you out....

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Isn’t this quite accurate? As long as your WNI spouse is a director of a company, and is the sponsor of your KITAS (Suami ikut istri or vice Versa) then you can indeed work for your spouse in that company - that is exactly what I understand the Immigration rules to be after researching the subject and talking directly to Immigration about it. If this is not accurate please do explain!!!

Immigration has nothing to with you working or not..

soren713 - ok Depnaker - my point is that as the WNA spouse of WNI director you do not need IMTA.

Work laws say that every company needs to get an IMTA for every foreign worker. (The imta is for the company, its Permission to Employ a Foreigner.). Companies are not allowed to employ any foreigners without IMTA (and without paying the $1200 - thats a clue).

guy8 I would bet you a good deal of money that the spouse law in question supersedes the employment law.

you mean that the spouse has the duty to support the family? Assuming you mean that, I have a question - how many foreigners have been deported for not supporting their family, and how many, for breaking the trms of their KITAP (working illegally).?

guy8 no idea I’m afraid but would be interested to know.

Just don't sign an employment contract with your wife, which nobody would do anyway....

Well, the first - none. I bet 1000$, no wna has ever been deported from Indonesia for not supporting their family. For breaking terms of KITAS, or KITAP? Quite a few. Doing the wrong job (different from on their IMTA), not having an IMTA, etc etc.

Gede, if it were that easy...... how many illegal workers here have a contract? errrrr... none! It doesnt mean they arent employed....

My recommendation to any WNI-sponsored spouse wanting to work in whatever way - go talk to Immigration and ask if they need an IMTA or not. If there’s any uncertainty then go talk to Depnaker.

guy manners How much do you get for pushing people of doing an IMTA which they wouldn't need?

Exactly what I did!

I have a good friend who works for his wife in her company and he feels “safer” paying for an IMTA every year. This despite being assured he doesn’t need one.

gede can you stay civil and non-accusatry please?

I am trying to protect people from possible mistakes. Life changing mistakes.

guy8 this intrigues me and I have to check that we are on the same page -

“For breaking terms of KITAS, or KITAP? Quite a few. Doing the wrong job (different from on their IMTA), not having an IMTA, etc etc.”

I’m only talking about a WNA spouse, with KITAS/KITAP sponsored by WNI spouse, working for the WNI spouse in a company of which the WNI spouse is a director.

When I see your other post you are accusing me..... So please think twice

guy8 this is a very good discussion to have from time to time.

FIrst, Gede, you have become aggressive, and are no longer discussing the point, and so you comments, I will ignore Goodbye.

Haha ignore the truth....

Your post is half an hour ago, my comment a few minutes...

martin3 I quite agree, and its very2 useful to hear other peoples experiences. Particularly to know what Imigrasi are now telling everyone! (which I can easily believe, could be inaccurate)

martin3 - so, yes, I thnk thats the main point of this conversation. A turning point would be that its the company, that needs to get an IMTA for any foreigner employed by them. Employment is not defined by a Contract (or lack of) - its defined by what you do there (same as people working illegally, casual work, no contract). SO, is it being said, that a company can employ a foreigner without an IMTAS, if its the spouse of the Director? Doesnt sound likely to me. Added to that, this is the first time I have heard someone say it so simply - it (until yesterday haha) has always been that you could work there (informal work i.e. help out) but NOT be employed. Employment (kerja resmi) can be (can be) interpreted as having these characteristics - a salary or pay, a job title, a position, a desk, duties, fixed working times..... etc. It only realy becomes important when your competition (or eighbour), or Imigrasi, want to have a go at you. The question then is - can you show that you are not actually, in reality, employed?

guy8 now we’re getting to the nitty gritty. Let’s say my wife had a PT and I worked for her/it - I would NOT sign a contract, all remuneration from her company for my work would go to a bank account in HER name. I would not print business cards with my name on. Even if I was at my desk from 8 till 6 every day, I would nevertheless consider myself to be there working in an unofficial capacity. I wouldn’t sign any contracts etc etc etc.

If however for some reason I felt that it were essential that I held a more official standing in her company, wanted payments sent to my account etc, then I would get her company to get me an IMTA.

Exactly! But the real breaking point, is, how safe are you if the local Imigrasi want to bonus, or have a friend who wants your business?

My wife does own a PT. For Events / Marketing. I have a spouse Kitas. I believe I can DJ at casual gigs - Invoicing with her business as the Contracting Party.

So following this thread. It’s occasional work and falls into the area of being covered.

Correct?

martin3 ask Depnaker, they are in charge of Imta.

I think you are way too close to being employed in that case. Basically she is getting directly paid for your work - obviously you are not just Helping.

Occasional work, isnt even mentioned \

guy8 well I guess if you feel that there is any threat to your standing then you’d be wise to get IMTA.

Or at least ask at Depnaker.

I know the office manager in DEPNAKER JKT. I have asked her for information. I will inform you as I get answer.

martin2270 now here’s interesting for you!! If your wife tells you to get off your butt and earn some dosh to feed the family and you go out and DJ here and there, then it is classed by Imigration as “informal” and you DO NOT need an IMTA from Depnaker. Indeed if you DJ for 4 different venues, which one of them would get you an IMTA? None clearly. But any work contract would be with your wife and indeed payment for services should go to an account in her name.

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Of course, we all have our experiences, have heard from different people. What I heard (after research, also, of course, being in exactly that position) is (simply put) you cannot be employed without an IMTAS. So if what you do is interpreted as employment, you can be deported. Now - imigrasi dont always know too accurately how it can all be interpreted. They will also accept no responsibility at all, for information they give you - and, now, its more to do with Depnaker now anyway!

Yes. DEPNAKER's call. Always has been.

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I think the point to look at is this. If I am wrong, no real harm done (just rearrange your work so its not employment). If the other is wrong, you could get deported. Hmmm?

Guy, I’m all for checking and rechecking and being prepared for different departments interpreting rules and laws in different ways, however one thing that is consistent in my experience is the right to work (without IMTA) of a WNA spouse for a WNI spouse IF the WNI spouse is a director of the company.

Work - maybe. Be employed - not. Thats the difference - Kerja, atau Kerja Resmi.

Which 2ife signs an employment contract with the husband?? Be a bit more realistic here

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I think if the business is registered as CV under the (local) wife's name, you can work (help out) as being the foreign husband. A CV cannot apply for the IMTA anyway. If the business is registered as a PT, I would be careful. A PT can apply for IMTA, so in the end it will depend of interpretation of the law...

A PT with a minimum invested capital of 1bln.

benjamin91 ooh theres some new info too! Thanks.....

Yeah this is a requirement, there are different categorization sizes of PT and only starting a certain valuation they can apply for IMTA.

Useful!

2 bln

i work at immigration agency and my husband happen to be foreigner too and this is the info that i knew and follow. you can help your Indonesian spouse in their business but as soon as the business become as big as where it’s necessary to open a PT or PMA then you must apply for IMTA to work there. a CV is fine because it’s not applicable to sponsor working kitas.

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Oh and the point of law that particularly interested me when I first discovered it during an early trip to Immigration is that a WNA husband has the DUTY to provide for his WNI wife and family - not a “right” to work but a “duty” to work.

duty to provide for the family

Don't we just love patriarchal societies??

they also say that a WNA married in Indonesia with a WNI is not a TKA, therefore the Imta stuff doesn't apply to them.

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True - thats where the law changes came from, because they were deny Indonesian residents, this duty to support their families.

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Ok lets get back tobasics. This is a site, for advice. As this is a pont often (and heatedly) questioned, the obvious answer is - dont take risks. The idea, that you can work if your WNI sponsor (spouse) is director of a company, certainly up to recently, used to be one that would get you thrown out. Things have changed in the 9 years I have been here, thats why I try to keep up with restrictions - and ignore possibilities, they are dangerous.

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A difficulty whether deliberate or not seems to be the interpretation is very much in the hands of who comes to check. And the attitude they come with. It’s like policemen doing licence checks. Do they check tax paid too?

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